In this episode, Cass is joined by clinical psychotherapist Katie Stanko—in what is basically a therapy session for Cass—to discuss trauma. Ms. Stanko explains what trauma is and the lasting traumas life with chronic illness can leave.
This episode covers
Big T and Little T traumas
Cass's trauma with paralysis
Coping mechanisms
Societal influence on Mental Health
Helpful links:
Transcript:
C: Welcome everybody to the It Goes Without Saying Podcast. It is me Cass your host and I am joined today by my thweetie Miss Katie Stanko. Hi!
K: Hi cutie!
C: This is Katie. She was my sister's college roommate actually eight years ago today you graduated from college that popped up on my Facebook today. Yeah, you're old. It's okay. You're so cute. But Katie is a psychotherapist here in Maryland. She has her own official private practice now. Yay. So we are here it is mental health awareness month, and we're going to talk about some mental health stuff.
K: Love it. Love it.
C: We love getting into the brain up here, my favorite thing to talk about. Alright, so let's kick it off our topic of the day. Well, we had a hard time deciding which mental health thing to talk about, because I have a few. But there also are so many. So we decided we're going to start from trauma, because we said that that's kind of where everything kind of stems from. So Katie, in your own words, what is trauma? Like? What is trauma?
K: So you for warned me that you were going to ask me this question and said don't look it up. But I looked it up anyway. Because like I see it as it can be a lot of different things. It can mean a lot of different things to different people. And so I just wanted to like get a an objective thing. So literally, when I googled it, it says a deeply distressing or disturbing experience. And I think that sums it up pretty well. That can be a, a pretty good like one big thing. We call those like big t traumas. And it can be like a series of many little things. And we can call those like little tease little t traumas, people can decide to call something a trauma for them that another person can experience and they wouldn't necessarily describe it as traumatic. And then, you know, vice versa. So it's really, it's a subjective word. And it I think that can be what is so hard for a lot of people to like, understand, but I think that's also so important to recognize is that like, we are all different, you know?
C: Yeah. And I think a big thing is that when most people hear trauma, they automatically just go to like PTSD and like soldiers, but like, what I have recently come to learn is that like, no, it's not just like being at war that causes trauma. There are so many things that people go through in life that caused trauma. And I've been sick now for nine years. And I've been in therapy off and on, I think for like seven of those nine years. And it just took within the last year for me to be like, Oh, that's traumatic, like what happened to me? Yeah, that is trauma. And I just think that like, let it like, it's okay to admit like, yeah, that is trauma. But now I feel like I'm kind of like, everything is trauma. But when I'm like, yeah, that was really traumatic. So now it's just kind of like, Ah, there's so many trauma.
K: Yeah, we can find ourselves like drowning in this idea of like, trauma. And that can be scary. Because if we acknowledge that, like, so many bad things happen, it's hard to look to the future without having some anxiety about it. Like what trauma is going to be around the corner next. Because like, I think it's important to be like, yeah, that fucked me up, you know, like, yeah, that's changed that change something in me that changed something for me. That's kind of how I would, you know, summarize it back to that definition. Like, if we can look back at it and say, yeah, that fucked me up. There's our trauma.
C: Yep. And I think like, I have definitely, in the last year, pinpointed several things and been like, Wow, that is really fucked up that that happened to me. And for years, people have been like, you're so strong, you do this like, and I just kind of brush it to the side. But when I actually like look at it from a different lens, and like, yeah, that was really traumatic. And like you just said, like, I use that now and be like, wow, like, look at how far I've come, especially on my bad days. I'll use that as the like, look how far I've come thing. But it also does lead to the anxiety, which is the whole other issue. So for me, at least specifically, I'll go with like, my paralysis stuff. Like there's so many other things that have happened to me, but I do the paralysis first, like right now, with that, to this day, I carry the acupuncture needles with me everywhere I go, they're in my backpack, they are in my purse that my purse is like a lanyard. They are in my purse. I think I even have some in my car, like I have them anywhere I am. And I think I will always carry them I even carry them in my like travel on case where I keep my toothbrush, like if I go on a trip, and I got paralyzed for the first time in like almost a year, like two weeks ago. And that's the first time in almost a year which is like really good, but I still I think I will always keep them and it's because I have like the anxiety that oh my god sometime I could get paralyzed and someone's gonna have to come and stab me in the bottom of the foot or something like that. Like that little nitpick in my mind, like, it bothers me that I do that. But I also know, yeah, that's just going to how it like I use I guess I use that experience to like have that but also like, Is that wrong for me to keep them? There is my question, Iguess.
K: I don't think so. Because when we look at like anxiety, there are, there are things that have a high chance of occurring, but the impact of that might be kind of low, something like an awkward conversation with a stranger or something like we have those all the time. But the impact that it has on us won't be too significant, right? Like we can walk away and be okay. Something like being paralyzed. in public, in some scenario, really anywhere, where you don't have a way out of it, the impact of that can be so significant, that the anxiety, even if it's been one year, even if it's been 10 years, the anxiety is probably always going to be there, because the impact if it were to happen, would be so much greater. And so we all have things that we do to be able to, like manage our anxiety about those things, if those like coping mechanisms, so to speak, end up causing more problems for us than they do like helping us with the solution to the first problem. I forget which way I said that but like, if it's not too much for you to keep those needles with you do it do it forever, because it's going to keep you safe, and it's going to help you feel you know, if the alternative was you just never left the house, you know?
C: Yeah, yeah. That makes total sense. Instead of debilitating it, it makes it so I am able, I guess, instead of like making me more handicap, it makes it so I am able to, and like at one point, I literally could not leave the house. So like progress, I guess through that. Yeah. Another thing that like I know, people always yell like, are like, Oh my God, you're so extra and things like that. But I literally every week, every like Saturday or Sunday night when I'm getting ready for bed, I make a note in my phone, and I label it with the date for the coming Monday. And I write out my day, I write out what I'm going to eat for each meal. I write out like basically what I'm going to do. So like, for example, hold on, Where's my phone? Let me read you what I have on my schedule. So we have this morning. It says Tuesday shake into that when I was going to have my protein shake. And my tea this morning class class meant that I was going to coach my two classes at work workout, obviously working out car, I had to drop off my car to get fixed. Then I had Heather that's my therapist, I had therapy today, then I had podcast, then I have tuna question marks. I didn't know if I was gonna have tuna for lunch later, then I have Best Buy and then I have spaghetti written for my dinner. And I have that for my entire week written down exactly like that with everything I'm going to do for the entire week. And like I have like it's just something that I do at the beginning of every week. And everyone's like, Oh my gosh, why do you have to do that? And like, it used to be I would like panic if something was like different. But now I've like started like I write question mark sometimes are all like, give myself like two options for food items. Sometimes I don't have what's written there and stuff. But like I get frustrated sometimes when people like will bring it up, like, Oh my gosh, why do you do that? But I like just let them slide and stuff. But for me, I think it's because for so many years, my life has been so unpredictable. And like that level of uncertainty because it was literally I say like living life like an hour at a time because the way I would feel would be totally like fine jumping around the Yeah, like you've seen me like jumping around dancing and saying one second and then like the next I'm flat out on the couch and can't do anything. So I think for me, it's like having that sort of control even if it doesn't, if I don't follow exactly what happens if something else comes up or something. But even having that little bit of control I think has definitely helped me to get past it. But it definitely is sometimes, like I have felt if like something isn't on like if I have if something happens, like something got canceled today. I like used to like panic, like it would freak me out so much like I would be like, I didn't know what to do. I would kind of be panicking sitting here. Like, what do I do now? I'm not really sure what to do and stuff like that. Like how would you help someone get through that situation when like, it's just there's been so much uncertainty and when you try to get that little bit of control, but then something comes in and throws off the little control that you do have How do you get over that hump?
K: That's a great question because especially talking about anxiety that can be one of our worst fears is like okay, so I spend this time and for you if if you're just writing like code words for what the day is going to look like maybe it only takes 20 seconds of your day but it helps you feel so much more confident going from one thing to the to the other. But like when that's the reason why is because we we want to feel like we are in control to some degree or that we have some sense Have predictability. And then something throws us off. That is worst case scenario. So at that point, I say all bets are off, whatever we have to do to self soothe, to get ourselves back down to baseline to, you know, like, bring our nervous system back down. We can't, we can't expect ourselves to work our way through something that how do I word this? Like that we didn't see coming. That's sort of like a trauma all in itself is like when, when it is out of the realm of our norm. We're all just kind of doing our best. Yeah, Rob, just sinking swimming some version of the two, you know, and so I say, if it's, yeah, getting in bed, and just finding a way to get through the rest of the day, or calling a loved one, or putting on a song or a playlist that you know, can like, bring you back to a sense of calm, like, I don't think there's any wrong thing that we can do for ourselves. And in times, and on days like that, if that makes sense.
C: That does I like it, especially songs, because that's me, and music, all the playlists, all the playlists, things, all the things all the things, playlists brings me kind of to like the depression, I guess, aspect of it all, with like, being sick for so long. And literally spending so many years in bed and cooped up and things like that. And just like I think it's especially hard, I feel like at times, it's harder now than it used to be when I have a bad day, because now I have so many good days. And so when I have like a bad day, or like a bad hour or something like that, it just like can feel like the world is just like crumbling around you and automatically in your mind. Like, at least my mind goes to like, this is it, I'm getting sick again, I'm going to get paralyzed, I'm going to have to drop out of school, I'm going to have to quit my job. I don't know how my job works with that way. I'm going to have to move back into my parents, I'm going to have to cancel my plans that I made with my friend I'm going to have to literally just like goes like this, this, this, this this, like all of that. And like I have learned now I guess like that's the trauma aspect coming in right there with like, automatically Your mind is just like the worst case scenario, but like, it's kind of a valid place to go, I guess is like would that be correct? Because like it has happened before, of course, 100% capacity. But it's like, for so many years, you're just like, oh, like you just like beat yourself up. I'm just like, why? Like, why do you go to this place or things like that. But like when you find out like hey, like no, like that's okay, because like this shit happen to you. So like, it's okay for you to feel that way. As long as you just let Don't let it fully kind of take over. And that's like, sometimes like it's okay, I think to have like a Why me night and stuff like that. Like, I've definitely had those nights where I just like lay there and I'm just like, yes, this is my life. It's bullshit that I've had to go through this and stuff like, why is this still happening to me? It's been nine years, but then like, the next day or some days, maybe like a couple days? I'm just like, Okay, I'm back to just kicking ass through it.
K: Absolutely. Absolutely. No, I mean, I think it's all part of the process, whether it's a physical thing, a mental thing, an emotional thing. We all have those where when we've been through hell, any sign of that hell makes us feel like we are getting sucked back in. And then that's also like the, the anxiety part of us wanting, like the predict predictability and like ability to like manage, it is like, even if we are going from zero to 100 like, Okay, I have this bad hour. And then I'm thinking like, I'm in the midst of this bad hour. And I'm thinking of like, the next nine years that are going to put me through hell like and feel like a lot but it also like when you think about it, it makes sense that our brain goes there because we want to even if it's the worst possible thing we want to feel like we know what is coming next.
C: Yeah, that's exactly it. Like once again, like with like the planner and me and I was like trying to think like, even before I got sick, I think I was still kind of a planner. Like I actually use the planner they gave you in school. But definitely since I've gotten sick, it's become more of like, I that's why like I have to plan out my day and I have to be prepared and even if it's a bad day, like the worst case scenario, like I have to be prepared for what is going to come because my life has been just one big uncertain What the heck is going to happen to me today. What if I try this medicine? What is going to like what symptoms Am I going to come up like, if I have to cancel my doctor's appointment? What's going to happen to me like with my COVID shot, I had like super anxiety from it because my first Lyme symptoms started after I got my HPV vaccine. I got my third HPV shot. And then two days later, my Lyme symptoms started and we didn't know like the correlation at the time. But then a few years later, being in the Lyme sphere. My mom saw someone post a question like asking like, has anyone else's kid, like did their symptoms come up shortly after the HPV shot? And there were like hundreds of comments on it of parents being like yeah, like that my and like my mom was like What so she called my doctor. And it was literally I got my COVID or my COVID, I got my HPV shot on May 5, and my headache came out may 7, and like that's what started off. So it's not like the HPV shot caused Lyme. But for those of us that have chronic Lyme and have the bacteria dormant in our body, something in that vaccine triggered it and made it made it angry, and made it come out. So since then, like shots of what was like terrified me, I was like, Oh, my God, like, what's going to happen now? Um, so like, I was already having all those issues from that, like terrified anxiety of like, Oh, my gosh, I have to get the COVID vaccine, am I going to have a really bad reaction? Because I've kind of been doing better. So I was like, is this going to send me all the way back down. And then I also have, I'm, like, allergic to rubbing alcohol and allergic to all these things. And I'm like, okay, like, Am I gonna have a super allergic reaction to this when I have to get this shot, but then also, the COVID shot was making people sick. So I'm like, Am I going to get really sick from that also, because of that, like the shot itself is making people sick. So as a lot of issues, also with Lyme, you just never know. And so it was like a big thing when it started coming out with a vaccine. And I had like talks with my doctor and everything about it. And she looked me dead in the face. And she said, I'm recommending it for everyone else that has comorbidities and other like issues, underlying issues, except for my Lyme people, because I'm honestly not sure what's going to happen to you guys. Because Lyme disease is so unpredictable right now. Um, so she said, so we're gonna wait a little bit and see pretty much like, see how everyone else did and then see what we would do. So then that was our plan. And like, I was okay with that. And then she started having pain patients that got it. And she actually saw that they were getting, like, some of their symptoms that they were having from their Lyme were getting better after their COVID shot. Because what she thinks was because like COVID has like the inflammatory response. And so something in the vaccine is calming down the inflammation that everyone has will not ever that people have from their chronic illness that can cause inflammation, which like lime does. So then she was like, I really want you to get it. And I then also she was like, and like, I've seen some people that have gotten COVID and I don't want you to end up with that and get really sick and stuff, too. So when it was like decided that I was getting the vaccine, the amount of like anxiety and stuff that I had, like I had to like, I mean, for my therapist, I was like, I had to calm myself down and things like like, I just kept having to say like, I'm okay, like, look at how well I was doing. Like last time I had a shot like I was really I wasn't in a good place and things like that. Like, that's why I kind of have to think, like go through the process of like, it's not going to happen if it does, like I scheduled to have someone cover my shift for me at work in case I got sick afterwards. Like oh, I was just terrified, like physically just like, like, I was like, Oh my gosh, like am I going to die? Like I was an athlete, like an honest thought, like, Am I going to die? Like I'm not being overdramatic? Like That was the thought process that I had.
K: Yeah, no one that makes perfect sense. Because it's not like anyone could have told you like, no, Cass, we're not going to die from this. Like, no one can tell you that with any certainty. Yep, that makes perfect sense.
C: The other part of it, like, like I had that I feel like that's kind of like a normal reaction to have like, once you've gone through like something traumatic like that. But what I have found as well is that, like, I have the reverse where I have no reaction. And that's like with my paralysis again, like, I get paralyzed. And I'm just like, it's fine. Like, it doesn't faze me at all. Like it does kind of, in a way when I'm just like, oh, shit, I can't move. But I'm just like, I guess it happens so much. And so off. Like, it was six months of my life getting paralyzed pretty much every hour a day, like I don't know if I ever made it like, couple hours without getting paralyzed, like woke up, paralyze me down to the living room paralyzed, maybe eight something paralyzed, maybe made it to the bathroom by myself paralyzed like all day, every day for six months happening like that, that at some point, I think I just became numb to it. But there are still times when it was like terrifying. Like, I remember one time when we were at Deep Creek, we were at the lake. And I like didn't feel well. And I didn't want to like ruin anyone's vacation. So I just said I was like, going to lay down I like knew it was coming. And I laid in my bed. And it was like a long time. And I was like, Well, shit. Now it's kind of scary when it's like there for a long time and you can't move. And like, I need to like pee or I need to do something. And it was so bad that I couldn't open my mouth. And so I was like screaming and I was like, but I could hear them upstairs. I was in the basement and I could hear them upstairs, listening to music and like singing and dancing. And I just remember laying there like, Oh my god, nobody can hear me like this is it but then that's also when like the deep dark thoughts come in, like I'm gonna get really dark. I'm sorry, your therapist. Just like the deep dark thoughts and you're like, this is like Look, listen to how much fun they're having without me. If they find out that this is what's going on right now. I'm going to bring them down. Everyone else will be better off if I wasn't here like those dark thoughts come in when you're sitting there like that. And like that happened a handful of times when I was going through all Like the six months of paralysis, and finally someone came down and happened, my brother, he was a dick about it. And then my mom came down and had to help me. But, um, but just like that now, when I get paralyzed, like how I was a couple weeks ago, I was just laying in bed, and I got paralyzed. And I'm just like, Alright, I'm just gonna lay here until like, I didn't, if it happened a while ago, I probably would have like, called someone to be like, Oh, my gosh, I just got paralyzed. Like, I casually mentioned it to my mom The next day, because I think I've just gotten so used to that aspect. But when I think about that, I feel like that also was like, horrible that I just like, I don't know, is, is it bad that I'm that it's happened so much that I'm used to it that I'm kind of numb to it, or Is that good? And it's a way because then it's not kind of terrifying at the same time, like, I don't know, like, feel like it's wrong that I don't have a reaction to it.
K: So before I answer, can I ask you why does it feel wrong?
C: I guess, it only thing. I guess it feels wrong. Because like, it feels wrong that like, why does it feel wrong to me, I don't have a reaction. And I guess because it means that I'm used to being sick, or like giving into it, I guess, in my mind, like giving into like being sick and accepting that I am like that this is how it's going to be. And I don't want to just sit there and accept that this is how it's going to be for forever, because I feel like that shouldn't be. But then on the other hand, I do also accept that I'm going to be like this forever. So it's like a very torn thing. If that makes any sort of sense.
K: No, it makes a lot of sense. And it's so complex. And I feel like I'm going to ramble. So apologies in advance. It makes sense that when something that has happened to us so many times, like if it were to happen again, like this example, it makes perfect sense that there is almost no reaction because not only does it not necessarily surprise you, after a certain point, because you are constantly thinking about it and constantly just like waiting for it. Or sometimes it's almost like I knew this was gonna happen, it was just a matter of time. Also, I think there's a part of us that, like, okay, freaking out about it isn't going to help. Yeah. And then also, just as a general statement, the different responses that we have to trauma, you know, that are typical fighter flight. We are starting to learn that there are more responses that is way more complex than just fight or flight. And freeze is often like the third, like, the third one on that list is just like not really being fazed by anything. And that's kind of because if, if, if this is happening, I can't afford to freak out about it like, or just because it's what our brain is doing to get us through is just, I'm just gonna sit here, you know, yeah. But I mean, the reason that I think we struggle with it is that thought that you had, which is why I asked about it is like, we are judging the response when sometimes, like, of course, it's always great to like be questioning and challenging ourselves. But to punish ourselves for something that we didn't do on purpose that we aren't like choosing to do often can just have like, the ripple effects up, like, it can go on for forever. What's like, not wrong of us to react in any way? It's, it's just how we're reacting.
C: Yeah. And I also like, I always wonder if it wasn't Lyme. And if it was another disease that was kind of more widely accepted. If I wouldn't have as many like triggers and things less like like that, like, I know, there's so many chronic illnesses that people have these issues with, which is so fucked up, too, I think. And like, if it was a visible illness, I say, because I would just say like all invisible chronic illnesses, I feel like we're probably all going to be on the same page. But if there was like, I don't know, if you were if I was like permanently in a wheelchair, because something had actually happened to like my spinal cord, and I was actually paralyzed like, that, would that experience be different, like traumatically mentally for me, obviously, there'll be a lot of different things going on. But like with that story, because people actually believe me that something was going on, like when I was paralyzed people be like, literally picking up my arm and drop, like to see if it would drop to see if I would stop myself. And then like, they literally didn't believe me that I couldn't move things. So like that added aspect on top of it. Just like really just threw me for a loop which will lead me to my next point, which I'll talk about, like the medical trauma. And so from the get go, it took nine months for me to get a diagnosis, all the different tests people literally telling me that I was just depressed, and that I needed to be put on medication and things like that, and having so many tests done over the last nine years. That didn't show anything like I so recently when I started having all my endometriosis issues, they sent me to get ultrasounds done and I just like, once again, like I now have like, kind of like my little, let's get my anxiety toolkit out and like figure out how We're going to calm ourselves down for this one because I just went in there knowing they weren't going to find anything. They were going to question me anytime I have to go to any sort of Doctor, I have to figure out in my head, when they ask me why I'm on medications, or when they asked me why I'm having the test done. I have to decide if I'm going to tell them it's Lyme or not. Because if I tell them, it's Lyme, I run the chance of them saying, well, who told you you have Lyme disease? Why do you think you have Lyme disease? Have you ever seen a therapist like that? I've literally it's happened to me before when I've told people that I have Lyme disease like doctors, so I'm like, okay, which medical thing Am I going to tell them now, like now, I kind of do have like, the Crohn's disease diagnosis that I could give them, and things like that. So like a little bit more accepted diagnosis that I could potentially give people. But it's always like, that's the first thing I have to run through. And then when they are going through the test, the tests themselves don't scare me like I have no qualms about getting bloodwork done. MRIs, CAT scans, I had like this radioactive testing done one time I had to eat like these eggs and I had had tests for like five hours of X rays. It was insane. And like, they don't mind me like they know me. I don't mind them at all. They don't mind me. ultrasounds. When I was getting this ultrasound done, I was literally laying on the table. The ladies like pressing off on my stomach, which hurt like a bitch because it literally hurts to touch my stomach. And I'm just sitting there like not saying anything, trying to count how many times I have had an ultrasound done on my stomach and abdomen, and I can't count. It's over five, I'm pretty sure over the past few years, because I've had so many stomach issues over the past years that they just like always like, oh, let's do the tests. And literally every single time they don't find anything. Yeah, but they always say like that the times of getting my hopes up and having them crushed down. Like it's so fucked up. That my mom and I were so excited when I finally had the test done. When I had to, I had so I had a colonoscopy an endoscopy done a couple of summers ago, I think it was two summers ago. And my mom and I were so excited because after the colonoscopy, they didn't find anything. So they had me do this test where I swallow a camera. Because the colonoscopy endoscopy can't get everything they can't get your small intestine, I think. And I saw the camera they called me in and they found something and we were like, Oh my gosh, like we were so happy that they had actually found something. Because we have gone so many years with me being in pain and no one being able to give me the answer, which was the same thing that just happened. So I had those. The What's it called? The thing that just said the ultrasound. I had the ultrasound done. The lit literally I'm on the table and this lady's like, why are you in here for an ultrasound? Like set it just like that? She literally has the thing shoved up my vagina. Why is she saying it to me? It hurts. And I'm like, they think I had endometriosis. But that's what she did. While she's like poking around and doing things to me. I'm like, great, this is awesome. Like, thank you for this already. So I'm already like, I left there in such a bad mood. I just called my mom and I was like crying calling my mom because I was just like I'm just it's just so fresh. And I like I get I got upset with myself for crying about it because I'm just like, it's happened so many times. But yet it's still so just like upsetting when they're just like you know that nothing is going to be there. So like why do you go to get your get your hopes up? So then I had the lappers I feel like I'm rambling now. But I had the laparoscopy done last month to officially see if I had endometriosis or not because sometimes it comes up on this the ultrasounds and sometimes it doesn't. And like setting myself up mentally for that was a whole thing. And I went into it just saying they're not going to find anything. I'm just gonna it's just gonna be like a nap was basically how I was thinking about them, like, they're not going to find anything, then we're going to have to be back to like route one with my doctor trying to figure out where we're going to go from here what's causing me these issues. And when I wake up, I'm like, woke up from the surgery. And I was like, basically still half asleep. And I was like heard the doctor base to say like, we found it and we took it out. And I like when I officially woke up I was kind of just like, I was so happy probably for someone who just had had surgery. So I was just like, Oh my gosh, they found something and when I finally like saw my mom, her and I both are kinda just like quiet for a little bit in the car and boosters. Like they found something like it was so shocking for us that after like they had actually found something and just my one of my friends and I had been talking about one of my wine friends and she was like, Yeah, like the same thing. And she's like, and that's medical trauma for you. Because just like that, that is the thought process. Like it shouldn't be that hard for someone to have to go and get a test done. But like the amount of prep preparation that I have to go through to mentally prepare to have any sort of testing done not because I am physically scared of it because I am mentally scared of what it's going to do to me.
K: Of course, yeah, because you've had so many of these experiences of someone with this power. You know, this medical degree they are a doctor are denying your experience. They're basically gaslighting you say well, you're saying that this is what you're experiencing, but we're not seeing it. In these things were meanwhile like, it's like they're looking in a dark room for something where like, if we just had a light Yeah, you'd see it. Yeah, but because medical community refuses to turn the light on and see what is happening, like, but it also makes sense like it because it's never going to be normal, nor should it ever be normal to just accept that people are going to misunderstand us or are going to be so not just like careless but so horrible to us, when we're telling them that we're in pain, that's not normal. It's not okay. Yeah. And the idea, even just the idea that, like, they have all of the answers, we know that's not true. But there's nothing that we not that there's nothing that we can do about it. There's nothing that we can do in the immediate term, you know, change.
C: Yeah. And that's I feel like was like another reason why I wanted to do the podcast itself was because like, in our society is so just like, what the doctor say is what it is. But when you have lived like the chronically sick life, you come to terms very quickly with doctors don't actually know everything. In fact, they actually know very little when it comes to these things unless they have actually lived with a chronic illness. And I think that that, like, it's still important for people to believe like, yeah, like, you're not crazy. If anyone's listening to this and you having you're not crazy, it's it's actually happening to you. They just don't know what is going on. Because their little book doesn't explain this.
K: Right. Exactly. Exactly.
C: That's like I have such moms I guess keep saying qualms. I've never said qualms as much in my life. But I like the way it sounds today. But I have so many calls with Western medicine because of that, like all my faith, destroyed with it, which is also a reason with like the vaccine, why I'm like, why I was like, do I get it, because it has led me down so much for the last nine years. And now like, with the antibiotics and stuff, I definitely think that I needed to be on those medicines for like, at some point, because I don't think I would have get gotten to where I was, but I think I was definitely on them for too long. And I think I was definitely on them with people that weren't looking at the whole picture that I like that the Chinese medicine looks at the whole picture. But then you also have your times when like, because of the way our society is, and we are so westernized and things like that. Like if I'm having a rough time, with like my Chinese medicine at one point, and I'm like, should I be doing that that like antibiotic? Should I be doing this thing? Should I be doing this thing? Like there's always the should I do this? Should I do this? Should I do this? And like how? It's still like it's been nine years? And I still have those days? like am I doing like you there's no way to know I guess it either. Like, there's no way for anyone to know if you are doing the right thing, like what any tips or tricks for helping people to be like to just look at in different way? Like, I don't know, give me a therapy term.
K: It sounds like there is this pressure at any given time to like if something is not working, like stop it and try something else. Yeah, sometimes when there are so many like hands in the pot, so to speak, like how do we know that taking this thing out and putting a new thing in is going to be it maybe the hand that we just took out was doing something like we just never know it is it is always so much more complicated than that. I think about this a lot in terms of particularly things like choosing relationships, and like a career like, we are told, I think, to your point as well, just about our Western culture, I think we are told from such a young age that in any given scenario, there is a right and there is a wrong and that is our brains or our society in general wanting wanting simplicity wanting black white wanting an easy answer, like a flip of a switch as opposed to like some sort of dimmer like we but the reality is that like there is not anything that contributes something positive to us could also have, like, it could also be contributing something negative to us, and vice versa. And so, however possible, to even just like, challenge or question the idea that there is a right or wrong. Yeah, I think would probably be like step one, because like we were talking about with carrying the needles everywhere, like if to you that was adding a negative of you know, always having to be aware, like were my needles that didn't, that wasn't worth the positive that it is to carry them around for the sense of safety and so that you could feel like you can take healthy risks, leaving the house going to do things because if this thing were to happen, I have this as a backup. And so sort of the same thing. Like if we can take the pressure off of ourselves. To only ever do the right thing, we're never going to know what the right thing is until we have like, tested out some of the wrong stuff. Does that make sense?
C: Yeah, it does. And I like it. And that's kind of like think like where I have been, in the last two years, I have like, strictly done my Chinese medicine because I've been sick for nine years. And I have seen like, I think this is my Seventh Doctor. And I think that's kind of crazy, too. Because like, the second, I think that things started going downhill again, like we would immediately to start looking for a different doctor. And I feel like, at some point, that definitely was more negative, as you were just saying, because I'm like, that had to go through the whole process all over again, of starting here, going through my whole entire two hour appointment of explaining my whole story so far, then then probably given me something that I have already been on because they the other doctor, they they are going to overlap and things like that. And just starting the process, instead of kind of sticking it out seeing what we could do. And that's where I have been for the past two years with this doctor with like, if things I'm not feeling well, for a little bit, I just trick I've tried trust her completely. It's kind of like the other doctors, I was always questioning what they were doing. And with her, I don't question anymore. Unless like I thought I was gonna be like, really bad or something, you know? Like, I don't question and I'm like, Okay, if this is what she thinks is right, we're going to try that. And I'm going to believe in this process this treatment right now. Because I also think our minds are so powerful, that if I'm doing a treatment, and I'm not 100%, believing it, it's not going to work, because I'm already casting some sort of negative doubt onto it, that it's not going to help me. So how would it help me if I don't believe that it's been nice, you have to believe it to see it kind of and
K: Absolutely, that placebo effect can be a real bitch sometimes. Because sometimes that like hope that we have is, it can be it can feel very, like fake. But yeah, you don't need it to.
C: And that's also like, with the depression aspect. I didn't have any hope for a very long time either. Because I was constantly trying these things, constantly feeling sick, constantly being told that I was making it up constantly being told, I wasn't like that people didn't believe me, constantly being asked, Why are you? Why aren't you at school constantly being said to you, oh my gosh, I wish I could stay home and sleep all the time like this, all these things being thrown at you. And you're just like, this is me, this is my life. I'm the sick kid, I am going to just be here in bed, worthless, not doing anything. And it really gets hard to see that light at the end of the tunnel. And it's really hard to dig yourself out. Because the only person that really can do it is you like other people will sit there and try and they give you their like positive little like, come on, you can do it things. And you just want to punch him in the face and say let me sleep. Like let me it's like always like the the meme that you see. When people like have you tried kale? Have you tried you and it's just like, oh my god Shut up. And like people mean so well. But sometimes just like, please just just stop. Like, it's very nice of you. But I just need to be down here in my dark place for a little bit. Yeah. And I think like I've probably I've said it before, but like, you have, at least for me, like I had to hit rock bottom, which was like the laying in bed paralyzed at Deep Creek, like entirely just nothing. And then once you hit that, and you're just like, okay, I I'm the only one here that can help me. And so I have to do everything I can to help me which is keeping the needles with me at all times and planning things for myself to make sure like I am okay, and I know what I'm going to do. And like meal planning for myself to make sure that I know I have all the food that I can eat, that's not going to upset my stomach or my body and things and that sort of nature as well. And it is like a bitch I've been saying that my new saying is I'm low maintenance, my health is high maintenance. Like, I don't wear makeup, I wear my pajamas literally everywhere and I don't care. Like I don't care what other people think of me like that way but I have to take two bags when I go on vacation because I have to have a bag for my pills for my heating pads. For my mouth guard for my for my eye mask for my earplugs that I sleep with, like I have to have all those things in order for me to be able to like function as a member of society. And I think accepting that has been like a hard part of everything but realizing like hey, if that's what I have to do, that's what I have to do because this has been a very traumatic nine years of my life and in order for it to not be a traumatic forever of my life. I kind of have to do what I got to do kind of thing I guess.
K: Yeah, I mean, it just is what it is. I actually just read an article when was it like last week or something about the idea of like high maintenance just how like bullshit it is. Because it totally is an apparently it came from When Harry Met Sally like that's sort of when the firt like it first like became like a big thing and There's so much pressure on us to just like, be so chill and whatever. But like, how can we in this world in that like that, whether we have a chronic illness and mental illness trauma, whether we have like, some someone else's version of like justified reasons for being this way or not? If I want to travel with my heating pad, I'm gonna travel with my fucking heating pad. Yeah. Why? Why? Anyway, I'm gonna get off the box.
C: No, I love it. But yeah, it is just like, we've just been talking about like chronic illness traumas, but then you throw in the rest of the fucking world. And it's just like, Jesus, how does anybody survive anything? Exactly. It's just insane. Everything that we all have to go through is insane.
K: And Would I rather be like called high maintenance? by someone who doesn't give a fuck about me? And who I don't give a fuck about? Or would I rather like be comfortable and make sure that I can, like have a good time on my vacation? Like, yep, I know your family. I know how much you guys look forward to your deep, deep Creek trips every year. And that is so sad. Number one that, like your worst moment that you look back to is now associated with like, your favorite place in the world like that. It's Yeah, that's also a trauma. That sucks.
C: Yeah. And you just that brings me to Salisbury, which is where you went to college, where we were, where we were eight years ago today. But that was like a whole thing for me. After I left there, when I was a student there for one semester, and whenever I would go back to like, visit my friends that were still there. It was like a whole mental game of things as well. And like, I had to once again like mentally prepare myself and I was not fully equipped, like, has anyone ever fully equipped, but I was nowhere near like, as mentally aware as I was as I am now. And like, I would normally like feel really shitty, like before I was going and be like, oh, should I go I don't know if I should go. And like when I was there was always kind of like very much putting on the fake persona. And I think I now that I like know, things I'm like, it's because it has such a negative place for me like it's just like a big black stamp across it like, you know, in Harry Potter when like, they're looking in serious his house and like all the family members have like the black marks. That's what that was. And that for me. saulsbury just has the big black mark on it. Because it was just like, that is where all of like the hopes that I did have at any point, were just completely brought down and shattered. Because that was when I thought like, Oh, I'm in remission, like,Oh my gosh, I'm in college. I'mactually like, being part of society. I'm a normal person now. And then it was just like, whoops, like, bitch, you can't read anymore, and you're gonna get paralyzed now. And it's just like, Whoa, so it was so hard for me to go back there even though like, even when I was feeling well, I would feel bad. Because just like it would just the memories will just be there. Even if I was like the I would try so hard not to think about and stuff like how can you notthink about that kind of?
K: Yep. Yeah. Because everything there is like a trigger. I mean, we also know that like memory is so closely associated with like, smell. You smell those damn Purdue chickens. back the body remembers the body gets that score. And so it's like, we can try to prepare all we want. But there are all kinds of factors that are always playing on us at any time. And it sounds like that's a big, that's a big one. I mean, it's always gonna take us back. Yeah, make sense? Yeah.
C: It's just crazy. I think like bringing it back to society. Again, as people you just don't think like those little things like this, I guess it's a little on the big grand scheme of things like you don't think that little thing is going to cause so many issues. But when it has been like a traumatic experience like that, it can cause a shit ton of issues. And I think just for people to understand, like, like you said earlier, they're big T's, which is like, I think when everyone thinks of trauma, they automatically think of the big T's. But I feel like it's the little tease that actually can cause more issues down the line, because there are so many of them that can stack up. And then it also you feel the shame of like saying, Hey, that was traumatic for me, because society kind of tells you let the other people have their trauma time. Now you don't get to have trauma time row.
K: Right. And I always hate that idea. And I would always at my old job, we always would get into this because we would have someone in the group who like didn't have as bad of a childhood as like other people in the room. And so like, the best way that I have thought to like challenge that is like, so who gets to like, suffer just the one person out of the 7 billion people in the world who has it quote unquote, worst? Like, where like where does that lie? And all our pain matters. Yeah. And we can, like two people can experience the same trauma and come away with it differently. And then add that up to a lifetime of big and little tease. We're all going to see our shit differently. Even if we went through the same exact thing. It never ends. And any, any scenario where we are belittling ourselves, it's almost it can be it's not always, but it can be like, we are re traumatizing ourselves by denying that experience. Because just like every time you go to the doctor and have to like wonder, are they going to believe me? Yeah. If we start doubting ourselves to that has the same impact.
C: Yep. And I think that has been, like the most helpful thing within the last like, year or so is like, accepting that it is trauma, and then kind of just like going with that and be like, hey, yeah,that was trauma. Like, you don't have to feel ashamed to say that. That was what it was. because like you said, like, my trauma is different from someone else's trauma, who's different from someone else's dramawho's different for someone else's drama, but then we all have trauma. Like you can say that that's okay. And not i'm not saying mine is worse than theirs. I'm not saying like theirs is the same thing. I'm gonna say theirs is better than mine. Theirs is better than mine. But like that, it's we have it and just to saying that it's okay to say and it's okay to be like, yeah, that was traumatic. And it's, I think, also to put up helps you to put up the boundaries that you need to, to stop re Trump like the re trauma that you were just talking about. Yeah, this is some good thing. This is, you're smart,and you're just helpful. T
K: Thank you!
C: Thank you so much, Katie and everyone else for going through essentially a therapy session for me. It's been a week since me and Katie filmed this episode. And within that last week, I have been paralyzed three more times. I have had extreme severe, painful bloating pretty much for five days straight. I am not sleeping. I had a doctor's appointment today. And I literally called my mom sobbing the entire way home. And I was crying. And she was of course trying to talk me down and everything. Because as Katie and I were discussing, my mind just kept going through the dark places. I'm getting worse, this is happening. It's happening again, what am I going to do? How am I going to do this?But then she reminded me and I thought back to what Katie and I were just talking about of this is the re trauma happening over and over again to me. So I'm doing what Katie said, I'm taking a day for myself, I'm doing everything that I need to do for me, which includes playing outside, listening to john mayer and my fight playlist over and over again, and having some of my gluten free, dairy free, sugar free green free cookies, because hey, it's been a really fucking long, nine years, I'm exhausted, my body is exhausted. And I'm going to have a freakin windy day because that's what I need to do to get through to be able to continue moving on. So if you've also experienced trauma from anything in your life, chronic illness wise, anything else, I encourage you to just accept that it is trauma. I know it's scary to say hey, I've been traumatized. But when I can sit there and say that and remind myself that it helps me not feel so weak, I think because of how our society makes us believe that you can't talk about these things. So know that I am here with you. I am talking about this and I hope that it will help you in the long run as well. Thanks for listening. Our song for the end of this episode that Katie picked out is this is me from the greatest showmen. If you've never seen the movie, what are you doing? Go watch it and I'm sure everyone knows the song. So please just go sing it. Belt it out. That'swhat I'm about to go do.Thanks for following along. You can follow us for more info at I GWS podcast comm we are on Instagram at I GWS podcasts and Facebook at the same handle. Make sure you subscribe, leave every every leave a review if you want to, and have a wonderful rest of your day.
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